Had a ton of fun with Michael Charalambous! We covered a lot, but you’ll probably want to listen for the sections on performance management (his mistakes and how to do it well) and the five parts of emotional intelligence.
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Ep 2 w:MC
[00:00:00] Derek: [00:00:00] all right, let’s do it a and C thank you for coming on today, man. Why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about your background? How did you end up where you are now?
[00:00:10] Michael: [00:00:10] Yeah, It’s probably broken up best in it. Like three, three pieces. the first one is how did, how did we get into sales in the first place?
[00:00:18] Everybody’s got their story, right? I was, I was actually recruited to be a customer service manager for new horizon, computer learning centers. And when they have hired me, they’re like, Oh, we gotta, we gotta cross train you in sales so that you have both sides, you know, it’ll be more powerful.
[00:00:34] I’m like, okay, great. So I went to training, there was 30 of us and, At the end of the class, they’re like, okay, who’s most likely to succeed. I see that sales and who’s least likely. And so out of, out of the 30 people, I was least likely to succeed in sales is what I was voted. which
[00:00:51] Derek: [00:00:51] is way they both like that at the end of the class.
[00:00:54] Like,
[00:00:54] Michael: [00:00:54] yeah. Okay. Yeah. Based on like, you know, the interactions and things like that, and just. So what’s kinda funny. I guess they were wrong. So, they, they sent me back and they’re like, okay, we want you to hop on the phones and cold call. And, 45 days later, I was the only, I was the only sales person left from that training class.
[00:01:16]wow.
[00:01:17] That’s, that’s how I got into sales and I never looked back. And then as far as like, how did I get into management and stuff? And like, I think two key things that helped me to gain the confidence I needed to be successful was, when I first, first got into management, like you’re given a training program, you’re like follow this training program and you know, you don’t know any better as it, as a new manager.
[00:01:42]It’s what you’ve kind of seen. And you’re like, okay, I’ll follow it. and then when I got moved out of it and I became a national executive, I. Kind of picked up some pieces that made me understand how to train people. So when I was at CSA travel protection, you’re, you’re selling travel protection to these companies and then you have to go in and train their agents how to do it.
[00:02:05] And so I turned our training program into a really interactive training program and really got buy in from anybody, everybody. and then that’s, that’s when I started to realize that I had the template template for success. So. I started tracking everybody and there was a 35% increase in their number of sales.
[00:02:27]thanks to my training program than before. So that made me understand that I can go in and I can train people and I can train them correctly and I’m going to have success at doing it. And then the last piece of it was. Was an interview process. So when the companies that I had interviewed for, and the way that we did interviewing when I was a manager early on, it was just very questions, a lot of questions and stuff.
[00:02:57] And it’s like, how can you really determine how good somebody is? So when I got hired as a director of business development for leisure, Lincoln asked to build a team, they’re like, what’s your hiring process? And I said, Look, there’s this old hiring process out there where you just ask a lot of questions and then you’re going to talk to them and ask a lot of questions and we’re going to hire, I said, I want to actually know how good these people are.
[00:03:22] Right. And so part of what our job was was to cold call. So I wanted to put these people through the ringer cold, call me, right. You sell me my product. and that just helped me to really understand. What their weaknesses were, what their strengths were. Could they be coached, intuitive? They were, did they pick up on cues as I was giving them?
[00:03:46] And so having those two things, you know, the template for training and an interview where I could really figure out who was good, not helped me to like start to be more successful in the process. And then I, they obviously had to build the other things as I went along.
[00:04:06] Derek: [00:04:06] Can you tell us
[00:04:06] Michael: [00:04:06] more about the, that
[00:04:07] Derek: [00:04:07] interview process? So you have somebody cold call you.
[00:04:11] Michael: [00:04:11] Yup.
[00:04:12] Derek: [00:04:12] And I mean, I’m sure you don’t expect people to know enough about the product to do a good job there. What are some touch points you’re looking for? What, what indicates, would indicate somebody is going to get a thumbs up from you or thumbs down or.
[00:04:30] Michael: [00:04:30] Yeah, it’s a great question. I’m not, I’m not necessarily looking for, for that much product knowledge. It’s never about the product knowledge. It’s about the questions you ask. So when they’re opening up, we always say we have a scheduled time and what are the discovery questions that they’re asking me? what do they want to know?
[00:04:48] Do they want to know what my goals are? Do they want to know what the decision making processes do they do? They want to know my challenges. How, how are they asking me, to get in the door really? Like, Hey Derek, it was, it was a pleasure to meet you. My understanding is, is that you’re using this software today.
[00:05:05] If I have that insight, you know, I understand that other people have these challenges and I might be able to solve those for you. Are those something that you see? Right. So I’m giving an intro, giving them something where they have something to think about where then I can relate to a conversation. So.
[00:05:21] What are they doing? And then when I do give them to use, are they asking me layering questions? Are they picking up on cues? If I’m excited, like, Oh, wow, that’s great. You know? And then hopefully they add more to it. So it’s kind of like this scale, you put together and you’re looking for these stories.
[00:05:40] Have
[00:05:40] Derek: [00:05:40] you recruited people that don’t have experience before? And if so, how does that change? What you look for?
[00:05:47] Michael: [00:05:47] Yeah, I have, I’ve, I’ve done it several times at several companies and there’s a, there’s a core thing you’re looking for is phone presence. How, how does their phone presence, how do they present themselves?
[00:06:01] How do they speak? So those are like super important things. for account executives, are they curious enough? Are they curious enough? Do they, do they want to know more? So I’ve hired people who didn’t have it as much experience as other people, but they had self-awareness and they were coachable.
[00:06:22] Yeah, those two things combined with the other things that I talked about, you can turn them into top producers, which I have, like, there’s a combination because if you, if you’re not self aware of what you’re doing good or what you’re not doing good, then it, then how would you be open to me providing you coachability and feedback?
[00:06:41] Great.
[00:06:42] Derek: [00:06:42] So you’d mentioned that you figured out the template for success and training.
[00:06:48] Michael: [00:06:48] I
[00:06:48] Derek: [00:06:48] didn’t know we were going to get into that today, but I’m excited. What’s the
[00:06:51] Michael: [00:06:51] timeline for saying
[00:06:53] Derek: [00:06:53] this is the template for success. I’m training
[00:06:54] Michael: [00:06:54] somebody.
[00:06:56] Yeah, it, it has to be interactive, right? It in any training you ever do, you can’t just stand up here and say, here it is.
[00:07:04] And I’m going to speak for an hour on it. And you’re all just going to listen. Half those people will fail. Why, why would you do it? You can just give them the material and they can do it themselves. So you have to do it in a way where it’s interactive that you’re getting their buy in. You’re setting up little, like.
[00:07:22] Modules for them to be able to give you answers back. and ask them questions of their various ideas. So like, okay, we’re going to start the training program. and it’s like, Derek, where do you come from? This person? Where do you come from? What’s your background? What do you like? And then once you know, a little bit about them, then when you’re presenting the product, you’re like, okay, you tell me about how you would present this in your own words.
[00:07:48] For this, and you kind of get them in that state of mind going, okay. I would present it this way. And then the other part of it is to gain confidence is. You’re the peers in the room actually will say, wow, what did I like? And what I didn’t like about what that person did now, what you’re doing is you’re building cohesion.
[00:08:10]And you’re building that team culture and comradity, so that they’re going to start to rely on each other because if you keep it individual. Then they’re all going to feel like they’re on an Island. They can’t trust anybody. And there might be cliques here and there, but if you build it as such, that will give them a really good foundation.
[00:08:26] So it’s a combination of like questions, role plays, things like that.
[00:08:31] Cool. Cool.
[00:08:33] Derek: [00:08:33] Yeah, I’d say that my experience
[00:08:34] Michael: [00:08:34] pretty much drives with that. I love the,
[00:08:37] Derek: [00:08:37] What did I like or not like about what you just did
[00:08:40] Michael: [00:08:40] is a huge help
[00:08:41] Derek: [00:08:41] coaching reps that I’ve had listened to a call together and do some role play. I don’t think there were that I had done it in an onboarding or training sense.
[00:08:50] It’s an excellent idea. so, okay, so you accidentally fell into sales management.
[00:08:55] Michael: [00:08:55] I love that.
[00:08:57] Derek: [00:08:57] Can you tell us about a mistake that you made early on or just something you wish you had known?
[00:09:03] Michael: [00:09:03] Yeah. So my earliest mistake and it’s going to happen to all of us is when I had to fire my first person.
[00:09:13] yeah.
[00:09:13] And so I was approached by management, right. And they’re like, okay, this person isn’t succeeding. You’re going to have to fire them. And like you, it’s hard not to be able to stick to what you believe in, in your guns at this point. And having to listen to, to management. Right. And so I was like, no, this person needs 30 days.
[00:09:40] Right. We’ll just map out a plan with them. Right. And we’ll build it. And we’re going to work on each week and we’ll have goals on each day and et cetera. And they’re like, no, that 30 days isn’t going to help that person to change. So we’re going to fire them. And so the very next day I had to fire them and.
[00:10:01] I think it was one of the toughest things as my first fire, because it wasn’t the way that I wanted it to go. and so the lesson learned, and, and this is performance management is if you don’t have a performance management plan in place . Or you don’t feel comfortable with the one in place, you have to build it.
[00:10:23] And then by setting that expectation to your sales people, Then there’ll be no surprises along the way. Right?
[00:10:32] Derek: [00:10:32] What makes for a good performance measurement plan?
[00:10:36] Michael: [00:10:36] Yeah. Okay. It’s usually should be 60, 90 days. Right? The first thing is it’s going to be a warning, right? You’re getting a warning. You had a really bad month, right.
[00:10:49] And this is obviously when you’re off your ramp period. And then when you give the warning, you have to put together that plan with them and say, look, this, what do you think the problems are? Right? This is where the self-awareness kicks in. You ask them first, and then you prescribe, you agree with them.
[00:11:05] And then you add, but what you do is you don’t necessarily tell them what they need to do. You give them an exercise. And so like, for example, one of my reps. Was doing great. And then he really had this bad month and it wasn’t necessarily his fault. It’s just the people who signed up, backed out at the last minute.
[00:11:28] And so all of a sudden my sales rep went into a tailwind and was like, it’s me, it’s my system. It’s, you know, I got to change everything. And I’m like, no, just do what you’re doing. And unfortunately it didn’t happen that way. And then I gave a warning and I was like, look. Here’s this exercise. I want you to fill in these blanks along the way of what your story is when you demo and by doing so, it did more than what he thought it was going to do.
[00:11:55] And he uncovered like all of the things that I was getting him to look at and drivers and values and ROI and things like that. That was the only bad month. And he continued on, he either led the team in sales or was like top two. and I think, I think this, this past year he is number two out of like 20, 20 salespeople.
[00:12:20]
[00:12:20]Derek: [00:12:20] that’s
[00:12:20] Michael: [00:12:20] excellent.
[00:12:21] So warning then a development plan and then know, know they have like another 30 days to like figure it
[00:12:27] Derek: [00:12:27] out
[00:12:28] in, in, in his case, what you gave him when he filled in the blank. So to say that was his warning, or that was his development plan.
[00:12:35] Michael: [00:12:35] That was his warning. Like I’m very proactive. And I think. As new managers, you have to be proactive in seeing the signs.
[00:12:45] Right.
[00:12:46] You know, too many times people are like, Oh man, there’s only focused on the good people. Right. And then that’s all that they do. Right. Derek, you’ve seen this before. Right. And it’s like, you have to focus on everybody equally and you have to make sure that everybody is hitting and you understand their weaknesses.
[00:13:03] So when a warning people are like, Oh, I got a warning, but like, You need to document it and get them excited about it. Write about, look, it could be as simple as just it’s in your mind, it’s a little mental mistake or the way that you carry yourself. Right. start changing some little things about yourself and that that’s ultimately what will get you not getting into a development plan or even a performance plan.
[00:13:29] Derek: [00:13:29] What does the development plan look like?
[00:13:33] Michael: [00:13:33] The development plan. If, if that first. If that first scenario doesn’t work out, then you, you really, as a manager have to track that first week that you give the warning. are, are you seeing a difference? So if you have tools at hand that you can actually listen to them demos, or you can sit on a demo to really give that person confidence so that they know, wow.
[00:13:57] Like my manager is here to support me, you know, he’s on this demo just to make sure I’m doing it right. and then I can coach them afterwards. If you use a tool like gong, which is, which is an amazing tool, you can listen to it afterwards and then you can dissect it and go over it. And it’s really, it’s really important in that next one on one, to be able to reinforce like you’re doing all of the right things, or this is what I heard, let’s start to make those changes.
[00:14:23] So that development plan. Is based off of like, what did we miss? Here’s what I want you to focus on. You gotta be able to role play with the person and it’s gotta be on a weekly basis. Yeah. Certain metrics.
[00:14:35] And it’s a lot more directive than the warning . They didn’t like,
[00:14:38] Derek: [00:14:38] and then if they continue to miss the number after that,
[00:14:41] Michael: [00:14:41] and you put them on a performance
[00:14:42] Derek: [00:14:42] improvement plan.
[00:14:43] Michael: [00:14:43] Yeah.
[00:14:44] How does that look?
[00:14:46] Yeah. That’s, that’s not fun. And sometimes what can happen is. That middle period of when you’re helping them, it might not all click with them as fast. And then when they get into that last month, it gave them the time to figure it out and then they start to make a difference.
[00:15:05] Right. And so it’s, it’s a lot of the same thing again, but. But just maybe taking a step back and saying you are really good when we were just doing the basic things. So just keep with the basics. Right. but you really have to understand your people, to be able to advise them in what they’re doing wrong so that you can pull them out.
[00:15:28] Derek: [00:15:28] I’ve had wondering if you’ve had an experience like this. I had a rep who went through, we called it an action plan. You call it a development
[00:15:37] Michael: [00:15:37] plan. We went through
[00:15:39] Derek: [00:15:39] that,
[00:15:40] Michael: [00:15:40] no change,
[00:15:42] Derek: [00:15:42] and it’s not until I pulled out the pit. I could see in his eyes that now he knows them serious, but this is a serious situation.
[00:15:52] And almost had it turned around by the end. I think
[00:15:55] Michael: [00:15:55] had
[00:15:55] Derek: [00:15:55] he, started turning around at the action plan stage. Would have made it, but anyway, have you had, have you had experiences like that? Can you talk about that?
[00:16:05] Michael: [00:16:05] Yeah, I’ve had, I think points of having the plan in place is, so the fear is inside of people or they at least know the expectations, right?
[00:16:16] Like I had a bad month. That’s normal. Right. I don’t, I don’t think salespeople or even managers realize this enough, but like. If, if you track your really top performers, they’re eventually going to have that bad month, right? Absolutely. They always do. And so when you have that new hire, right, it’s important to just let them know, like you, if you haven’t been in sales before, you’re going to have that bad month.
[00:16:45] I mean, I I’ve had it. Right. and it’s what happens, what you do in the next month that defines you. And where you’re going to go from there. So it happens all the time and it like that last 30 days we’ll light the fire under people, right. Because of the urgency. And I think, I think that’s one of the important parts of an interview process to figure out is how do people create urgency?
[00:17:10] Cause if they can’t create urgency with their clients, how are they able to create urgency with themselves to think about their goal? Right. And so by doing that, you hopefully won’t fall into that. But I have, I’ve had people get into that, that, and, and sometimes I blame myself because I didn’t ask the right questions.
[00:17:27] Like the person isn’t building urgency, they’re not able to do what I need them to do. and so I got to look at the interviewing process and look back and say, okay, I’ve made a mistake and retool it a little bit.
[00:17:39] Derek: [00:17:39] Are you saying that somebody who doesn’t even get, you know, kicked into gear by the PIP, that’s probably just a hiring problem.
[00:17:46] That’s just not, they’re not a person who has urgency or is there something in the process earlier that you might change?
[00:17:55] Michael: [00:17:55] I’m going to say it’s, it’s the interviewing process, right? Because like, when I told you, I looked for coachability and I looked for self-awareness the rep that I told you that spiraled out of.
[00:18:07] You know, that one example I gave you, if you didn’t have the self awareness, the coachability . I didn’t believe by seeing him demo our products, that he was going to be a top performer, then he would have never pulled himself out and he would have never been that top performer. Right. And so I think managers early on. Just blame the account executives. Like, Oh, I just it’s a bad hire, but actually like, did you spend enough time with them? Did you, did you train them good enough? Like, what’s the ongoing training. Like we had this discussion the other day and it was like, what separates like a good manager from a bad manager.
[00:18:44]And it’s, it’s the level of what are you doing for your team to support them? Like that’s, that’s the number one reason why, like, that was the main reason why I got into sales. Right. so I’ll give you an example. I was at new horizons and I had that one bad month. and it was March.
[00:19:02] I’ll never forget it. You never forget your bad month. And what happens in my manager comes over and a month and he’s like, well, you didn’t hit your number. And you also didn’t collect the, the amount. So in the role, it was a full sales cycle role. Not only do we sell it, we managed it. We cold call and he says, you know, if you don’t hit both your collection goal and your sales number, which was.
[00:19:27] I think it was like 40,000, right? 35, 40,000. We’re going to let you go. So this is, this is news to me and other AEs and all that. And I turned to my manager. I said, okay, no problem. Like, what are we going to do? Like, how are you going to help me? And he’s like, I’m not, you got to figure this out. There’s nothing I can do for you.
[00:19:44] You have to do it yourself. And so like, it’s interesting that night I went back home and I was like, okay, Like, what have I been successful doing? And I basically created my own special one pager and everything. Council were well far above the floor pricing. I was like, and if you pay this month, I’ll give you a 15% discount on top of everything, which was still like above our floor.
[00:20:13] Right. So I was. I’m always selling on value. Right? Super important, because then you can’t position it that month. I sold 65,000 and I collected 55,000. So like that’s when I realized a manager’s job is to serve his team is to support his team and is to help each one of them be successful and not be like, Oh, I have these top performers.
[00:20:32] Great. I’m making this great. And then I’m getting away with whatever it is. Like, that’s just not how it should be.
[00:20:40] Derek: [00:20:40] You learned the right way by having somebody who didn’t do it, I guess they call that a negative role model.
[00:20:45] Michael: [00:20:45] Yup.
[00:20:48] What do you
[00:20:48] Derek: [00:20:48] say to a rep when you fire them?
[00:20:54] Michael: [00:20:54] It depends on, on the reasons, right? You have, you have to have the reasons . And it’s, and it should be no surprise. If you have this plan in place.
[00:21:03] Yeah.
[00:21:04]in my experience, what’s, what’s been really cool with people that have left me is they understand why it’s not working out because you’re so glued into them and you have this relationship with them and you’re helping them.
[00:21:20] And you’re identifying these things that they come to realize, you know, what. This isn’t, this isn’t right for me. Right. So it makes that conversation easier where you’re partying ways together, but you really point out, and obviously you make sure it’s documented, but you point out the areas where like, look, these were the areas.
[00:21:36] So here’s my advice when you move on, right. For your next company, focused on these things, right? So they have something that they’re going to go away with. Right. And sometimes it’s just a company, right. Or sometimes it just takes somebody to get fired, to realize, wow. Like I made these mistakes and this self-awareness finally ticks in.
[00:21:55]Derek: [00:21:55] all right. So for
[00:21:57] Michael: [00:21:57] you, what was the hardest
[00:21:59] Derek: [00:21:59] thing about transitioning from a rap individual contributor to now to a leadership role?
[00:22:05] Michael: [00:22:05] I think two things. I think number one, it’s money, right? As a manager, you’re not getting into management to make like. Millions of dollars right out the gate.
[00:22:16] Right. As an account executive, the money I was making was like, amazing. And then I became a manager and I was like, okay, I’m not making that money. Right. People on my team are getting like $10,000 checks and $15,000, whatever it is. And, and I’m not, which is, which is fair enough. Right. So I think that’s, that’s number one.
[00:22:36] Number two, two is. You’re not just responsible for yourself anymore on responsible for six other people, 10 other people, right? Not only am I responsible for their success, but I’m responsible that for them on a mental full state, right? So it’s almost like I’m becoming a therapist as well to make sure that their heads are clear.
[00:23:01] I’ve set the right expectations that I have this open line of communication and that.
[00:23:09] When they feel that frustration that they can come to somebody and knowing that it’s just going to stop here. Right. And too many times managers, I don’t know how to do that. And they’re like, Oh, this person’s a whiner. No, they just need somebody to come to the complaint to listen. And it’s your responsibility to parcel out what they’re saying, right.
[00:23:30] Just like a good sales person would, or a top performer and be able to say, okay, this is what I hear. This is fluff. Don’t worry about this. Like I get the frustration, but this is something real you’re touched on. Let’s focus on this. Right. And I, and I think that’s a huge difference in being an individual, a contributor and earning a team. Right. And taking over a team.
[00:23:50] How
[00:23:51] Derek: [00:23:51] do you get a rep to be comfortable enough to vent to you?
[00:23:56] Michael: [00:23:56] Yeah, that’s a great question. You have to be just as transparent if you want them to be open with you, you have to be transparent. Right. And so the other thing is, is when. When you give examples. So when you’re training people, the examples you want to give or not, I all the time it is, this is what I’ve seen other account executives do.
[00:24:22] Right. And I’m going to help you on it. Right. the other thing is understanding who that person is, right? Derek you’re, you’re, you’re a top performer at this company and I, now your manager, we were working together. Now I’m your manager. Like, I want to know, like, I’m, I have to interview each of my team members.
[00:24:42] Right? So it’s like, what are your goals? What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses when it comes to sales? What do you, what do you, what do you dislike about this job? Right? What is something that you’re like we need to change, right. And, and I need to understand all of those things so that when the time comes, I can help you refocus on that.
[00:25:02] And. And it’s a genuine interest in each and one of your people. That’s how you build that relationship and that trust factor and then transparent. So I’ve always been transparent about like each of my team members, right. Where they stack rank against everybody on the team and where we as a team and most managers don’t do this.
[00:25:24] If there’s other managers and other teams on the same level, but how do we stack rank as a team? Against the other teams, right? I know you have a goal, but I have a goal too, and I want you to be a part of it and I want you to be bought in right. And doing those things early on, just sets a great level of like comradery, a great culture.
[00:25:44] Like you’re creating competition, but it’s fun. Can’t tell you how many, like teams I’ve taken over and we like it doesn’t feel competitive and everybody’s threatened. And by the end of it, they’re all competitive. They’re all trying to help each other at the same time. and they’re all coming to me for like, okay, what can I do better?
[00:26:02] Derek: [00:26:02] And that’s it. So how are you making that turnaround? Not just a fresh person joining your team or being built into an existing culture, but somebody that’s, it that’s a one 80 cultural term, right?
[00:26:14] Michael: [00:26:14] Yeah. It’s so every company I’ve ever gone to, the first thing I do is. I interview my team and then I’ll interview some people on it, another team to see how sales acts, but I really want to know what each person’s goals are.
[00:26:29] Right. A lot of the times you’re going to hear people say I’m not getting support. I feel like I’m on an Island. Okay, great. Like, let’s talk about that. I understand why you feel like you’re on an Island and chances are, you’re just having, you know, the person previously was just having a sales meeting.
[00:26:47] And that’s it. And it’s just an open door policy. There’s no scheduled one on one time. There is no plan in place to help them. And, and so, you know, these are all the different things that you need to uncover about that person so that you can gain their trust. And then there’s one other thing that’s super important.
[00:27:05] and this, this is actually, it took me a while to learn this, but when you come into a company and you. Get a new team, like after the first week or two, you know exactly what the problems are of your team. Every good manager will know that the problem is, is how you train them on those things
[00:27:25] because why are they going to listen to you? Right? Here are the top five problems guys. This is what we need to work on. And they’re going to be like, why, why would a top performer listen to you? Right. But what you have to do is you have to pick one of those topics. And you have to actually instill it slowly, right?
[00:27:42] So not just one day, but over a month and slowly go over it. And you, who’s the technology you have. If you have like technology gong, for example, where you can, you can listen to the calls and it does statistics and you can use feedback. You take what you’re trying to train and the people who are already doing it well, and you present it to everybody else in a snippet of like five minutes, 10 minutes, and then people will start to see like, Okay.
[00:28:09] It’s not, it’s not MC telling me these people are doing it and they’re selling more than me. This is great. I want to do that. So you’re getting their buy in by their demos and stuff. Right. The best salespeople. Right. They use stories, their clients’ stories to help power the product. It’s the same thing in training.
[00:28:31] Derek: [00:28:31] Yeah. I love that.
[00:28:32] Michael: [00:28:32] And
[00:28:33] Derek: [00:28:33] it’s almost like your job as leader. It’s not to tell people what to do. It was just to find examples of what’s working or what’s not, but put that in front of people so they can begin learning from each other.
[00:28:46] Michael: [00:28:46] Yeah.
[00:28:48]Derek: [00:28:48] all right. What, what is your, what do you love about being, being a leader?
[00:28:55] Michael: [00:28:55] I love the moment. When the sales rep gets it, right? They that, yeah, I I’m a father of twins right there. They’re six and a half. And it’s like, if you’re, if you’re not a parent, this is what a parent feels like is when that sales person has that aha moment. And they put it all together and they just start like hitting all cylinders and they just consistently start hitting goal.
[00:29:19] Right. And they have that confidence and they, yeah. That’s like that proud manager moment. That proud father moment. That’s what I love. Because that’s the goal is your goal is to build each of your reps so that they’re coming to you for strategies, because they’ve learned all the other stuff that you’ve taught them.
[00:29:36] And then you can build upon on the next levels with them, right? You want them to be as independent as possible to take those ideas and thoughts and hopefully learn by what you’ve taught them so that they can do it without you. That’s that’s the excitement.
[00:29:52] Derek: [00:29:52] Yeah, I think that’s a common theme with all the leaders I talk to is I love how I impact other people, not my own achievements, my own, you know, making a bunch of money or whatever it’s when somebody else crushes it.
[00:30:12] Michael: [00:30:12] Yeah.
[00:30:14]Derek: [00:30:14] alright. This is a question that we get it dying out lot. How do you manage a team? That when the people on it used to be your peers.
[00:30:25] Michael: [00:30:25] Yeah. Same idea. It’s kind of what I spoke about earlier is you got it each and every one of them individually. Right. And it’s okay. I know you’re the top performing here.
[00:30:37] I know I’m going to manage you. My job. It’s funny. My job is not to get in your way. It’s it’s to be able to help you. Right. We used to complain about a lot of the same things, but now I’m on your I’m on your side still, but I’m just looking at a different lens so that I can help you. but what, I don’t know, because we, we don’t work together.
[00:30:57] Right. I just hear you and you hear me and we talk is like, what are your, what are your weaknesses? Like, what are some things that you wish you could get training on? Right? What, you know, what’s your personal goal? What you want to buy a house? Right. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve spoken to her.
[00:31:15] Like I want to buy my first house. Okay, great. Do you know how to get there? Do you know how much money you need? And they’re like, yeah, well, I don’t know about that. Okay. Let’s put that plan in place. So now you’re helping them. And then that the goal is part of how much they’re going to earn at work. And then how are they going to get there?
[00:31:31] Right. So like, goals are so important in people’s lives. Like personal goals. And, and being under able to understand that and speak to it, we’ll be able to help them. And I think like, how do you like feedback, right. We’re going to have one on one sessions. Like, what’s your feedback? Like, do you want me to be direct with you?
[00:31:53] Do you want me to like, fluff it up a little? Like, do you want me to write it in an email? You know, what, how do you like it? Right. And I think then the last, the last piece of all of that is, is. Is telling them what your goals are and what you’re trying to do to help them and be transparent. Like I’m not gonna, I’m not, I’ve said this a lot of times, I’m not here to change this organization like tomorrow, right?
[00:32:16] I’m not, I’m not a magician, but like, know that I’m going to strive to make it a better culture than what it is today and we’re going to do it together and you’re going to help me get there. and. That top rep, right? He’s gonna, he’s going to be a little hesitant with you for probably like a month, maybe 45 days, 60 days.
[00:32:36] But when he starts to see what you’re doing with the other team, right? The other players on your team that are listening, that are picking it up and they’re starting to sell more and threaten that top producer, I guarantee that top producer will start to listen to you more.
[00:32:50] Derek: [00:32:50] I love, I love asking people how they like to get feedback. I feel like every time I’ve asked somebody that though they’ve said that they want direct feedback. Have you ever had somebody say they want you to fluff it up for them or give them gentle feedback?
[00:33:08] Michael: [00:33:08] Yeah. I’ve had a couple of people say, look like I don’t have a problem with rejection and a sales thing, but feedback can be kind of a little difficult, so.
[00:33:18] Okay, good. Could you. Could you break it up for me? Could you go easy? And that’s when you want to use like, examples that they in their life that will be able to help them. Right. Instead of like, okay, this is what you’re doing bad. Instead you flip, you flip that script and you basically ask them, okay, what do you, what do you think you did this week?
[00:33:40] That was really well. What do you think that you didn’t do well? Right. So now I’m not giving the feedback. You’re giving the feedback, right. And it just flips everything. And then. Then you’re massaging it differently. Right. And you should probably use that with all people on your team is, is have a set plan.
[00:33:56] When you do a one off one super important, you should always have an agenda. Right. And that’s part of it is like, tell me how you did. Right. How was your week? What do you think you did? Right? What do you think you did wrong? What do you want us to work on today? Right? yeah. And that helps change their mentality and mindset because it’s nonthreatening.
[00:34:14] Derek: [00:34:14] Also, I believe teaches them self awareness that they have to identify what they did well and think about it. They have to think about and identify what they should be approving on.
[00:34:25] Michael: [00:34:25] Yeah, absolutely agree. That’s a great point.
[00:34:31] Derek: [00:34:31] what, what’s something that you look for? Let’s think about this. some people that are, that are going to be listening to this are reps hoping to get that first promotion to leadership.
[00:34:41] What’s something that, that a rep can do today to improve their chances of getting promoted or just getting closer to that leadership spot.
[00:34:50] Michael: [00:34:50] Yeah, that is, it’s a great question. And I’ve, I’ve seen it time and time and again, and it’s. If you, if you want to be a manager, right. And hopefully your manager has asked you this.
[00:35:02]it’s one of the questions that I ask is like, what are your goals? Do you like, what do you want to be a hired Hitman, right. Hired sales gun for like your whole career and just make that money or do you actually want to get into management? Right. Right. And as a manager, you have to identify that because then you can work with that person.
[00:35:18] Right. A lot of managers don’t ask that. So as an AE, what I advise you to do is actually step up and tell your manager, like, look, I know I just started here. One of my goals is I want to be a manager eventually. Right. And obviously I don’t have any experience, but I I’d like to learn. Obviously my job is to sell for you, right.
[00:35:39] And this company, and I’m going to do that. But. If you could coach me. Right. And if they’re a good manager, they’re going to help you along that way. But let’s say they’re not right. I, one is how you assert yourself with the team. Right? And I think what I realized early on in why I would become like a really good manager is that people came to me for help without asking them.
[00:36:07] Well, while I was, while I was an account executive, so people would be like, Hey, I heard you say this. Why are you saying that? I’ll be like, Oh, I say this. And so the training started from accounting executive position, right. They call it the three 60 leader. Right. Have you ever read that book? It’s a 360 degree leader?
[00:36:24] No, basically how one person can impact a company when they’re not even in a managerial position. Hmm. Okay. And so as an account executive, if you see people coming to you for help and you can openly communicate and help them, that’s a good starting point, right? How you support the team, right? Are you somebody that’s like, Oh, you hit your goal.
[00:36:45] You know, I don’t like good for you and I’m angry about it. No, you should be generally happy. And so when it comes time, right. This, and obviously I would recommend reading like some managerial books as well, to help you get there. But when the time comes and you put your hat in the ring, people will go like, look, he’s actually been able, or she has actually been able to help the team to get better.
[00:37:09] And they’re a part of the process and they’re always trying to help instead of, Hey, we’re hiring for a manager and all of a sudden, like people come out of the woodworks and now they’re supporting the team. Right. And now they’re trying to help which. That that’s just not a good model. you have to have that earnest and that love and passion for wanting to just help people genuinely without receiving anything back. and so those are some of the things.
[00:37:38]Derek: [00:37:38] My experience is that the best managers are not the best. They’re not always the top rep. They’re usually good. but top reps, it’s a different mentality. What if you were on a team where everybody’s good and how does Emily, who is on that team, but once move into leadership, what would you recommend they do given there might not be a lot of coaching opportunities or, or non-obvious ways, not a lot of obvious ways to actually contribute lawyer describing.
[00:38:11] Michael: [00:38:11] Yeah, I think they have to being a manager. You have to understand the situation around you, right. And so can you identify as an, as an account executive wanting to be a manager, what the challenges are and how you’re going to help that process? So basically you’re building a plan. Right. Just like, if I was going to a new company, like people will ask, like, how would you, how would you change our company?
[00:38:39] What would you do when you come in? Right. And a lot of people kind of like hide and they’re like, Oh, if I give you the information, you’re going to go off and do it yourself. That’s great. But you have to be able to have the knowledge and the skillset, knowing that you can put that plan in place. Right.
[00:38:58] And so I think as an account executive, you have to figure that out and say like, okay, here are the top three challenges that I see here is how I’m going to solve them. And I’m going to do that by training. Right. And I noticed that we don’t do one-on-ones, they’re only 30 minutes and I don’t, I can’t access my manager.
[00:39:15] You know, he’s only there for me certain times. Right, right. And the rest of the time I’m on my own. So as a manager, I’m going to be more proactive in that. Right. And I’m going to be there for my team first and foremost, to give them that support because that’s, what’s lacking by doing these things. The ROI is going to be significant, right?
[00:39:37] Derek: [00:39:37] I love that you brought up the comparison to, you know, whatever it’s called the 30, 60, 90 coming into a new company, my perspective. And I want your thoughts on this. My perspective has been knowledge is cheap. I’ve never been afraid to come in and say, here is a fairly comprehensive plan of what I would do. These, the hard part is the execution.
[00:40:00] Michael: [00:40:00] Right.
[00:40:00] Gotta be able to come up with it. That’s really important, but anyone can go Google a bunch of stuff and put together a plan.
[00:40:07] Right.
[00:40:09] Derek: [00:40:09] All right. So anyone who’s listening that? Yeah. That’s my wisdom. Any other advice that you would give to people who either are getting ready for that first promotion or just got into the role it’s got into a leadership role?
[00:40:26] Michael: [00:40:26] Hmm. That’s a good question. I think the thing that we haven’t talked about that I think is super important is emotional intelligence.
[00:40:34] Derek: [00:40:34] Okay.
[00:40:34] Michael: [00:40:34] Right. I think you have to like. Like, if you asked me what I’m good at, like that emotional intelligence, you know, with everything else is, is being able to, to like have this right.
[00:40:50] Emotional intelligence is broken up into, into five categories, right? Self awareness, self regulation, motivation, empathy, and social skills. Right? motivating isn’t necessarily the easiest thing in the world. If you don’t understand your team, right. Empathy. I have seen managers. You know, who have just started.
[00:41:08] And they’re like being a manager is yelling at your team and it’s like, wait a minute. This, this isn’t like Glen Gary, Glen Ross. Right. That’s not, that’s not how it works. Right. It’s you just have to talk to your, to each and every person as a team and you have to empathize with them because if you don’t understand what they’re going through, then how do you know how to manage them?
[00:41:30] Right. And so emotional intelligence is, is so huge these days. And. You know, not a lot of organizations cover those things. People are like, dude, I’m sorry that you had a death in the family, or I’m sorry, you’re having a bad day. You need to get back on the phones. And sometimes it’s just like, you know what?
[00:41:46] I think you need to go home for the day. Right? And then the next day, they just work from home to get your stuff together because you’re not going to be influence on the team. And then hopefully we’ll talk tomorrow and things are great. And usually that works and the person comes back and they’re re-energized and.
[00:42:03] Those, those are like emotional intelligence is such a big part that helps in the success of your team. So I would definitely recommend that as a, as a new manager is making sure you, your understanding of your team.
[00:42:16] Derek: [00:42:16] Yeah. That’s excellent. Thanks for breaking that down to those pieces too. I think sometimes like an add on to that is sometimes, you know, sending somebody home or whatever.
[00:42:28] Do you think them permission to not do work today? I felt especially early in my career. It doesn’t matter what’s happening in my life. I have to do at work today and I’ve seen other people. Feel that way. And when you give somebody permission to not go home, don’t worry about today. it’s I think it’s a game changer or candidate.
[00:42:49] Michael: [00:42:49] It’s an amazing feeling, right? You’re you’re such like what we have to remember. Right? When you were a sales person, how driven were you? There was no failing. Right? I like, I don’t want to let anybody down the fear of not hitting my goal. Right. And I’m going to do everything I can. But like getting, you can get burnt out really easy.
[00:43:09] And when that person gives you that, like, dude, you’re doing an amazing job or you’re having a really bad day from what I, I can see, let’s go take the day off. Like yeah. There’s nothing better than your manager understanding that because you can’t understand it yourself at the time. Right? Like I’m sure with the teams that you’ve built was the same.
[00:43:26] Right. Right. People are. So I like this that they don’t see what what’s happening around them. And that’s where the other aspect of management. Yeah, absolutely
[00:43:37] Derek: [00:43:37] cool. MC thanks so much for coming on the show today. I thought this was excellent empathy, I think is going to become a, you know, a real focus of attention over the next
[00:43:49] year or two. And I love this as, as a kickoff for us.
[00:43:54] Michael: [00:43:54] Yeah. Derek, thank you so much. I had a great time being on your podcast. I’m looking, looking forward to listening to more of yours and, however, I can help that. I appreciate that.
