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Derek: [00:00:00] all right, everyone. My guest today is Jessica Roman. I’m really excited to have Jessica on because, we were just talking about her huge varied sort of, I don’t know, calling it maybe eight atypical or like really interesting background. And I’m not going to do a Johnston. If I try to jump into the, just, do you mind telling us.
You know, where you came from? What was your path? How did you get it?
Jessica: [00:00:25] Yeah, for sure. Hi, Derek. I’m thrilled to be here. Thank you. Yeah, I was, I was thrilled to be on the show. I think there isn’t enough content out there for first time managers. I’ll talk about it during my intro, but I’ve. Pretty much built my team off of first-time managers and hired people entry level and really coach them.
So I was really excited to come on and be able to talk about that. But, yeah, so I’m just Roman. I am currently running Meltwater in Canada. Meltwater is the leader in PR and marketing software. so especially during COVID, it’s been really interesting to work with customers in this space. we’re essentially helping them manage their brand.
So their brand in traditional media, Their brand on social media. it’s been a really cool time to watch our customers have to shift, but a little bit, a little bit about me, I guess, outside of Meltwater so I can do my background justice. I’m originally from France. I grew up in West Africa. I grew up in a really tiny country called Togo that most people can’t place on a map, grew up there for my entire childhood.
And then I moved to Canada to go to school. I went to Miguel, which is a school in Montreal, and then started at Meltwater pretty much right out of school. So I’ve been there seven years now. Seven years have flown by. And, you know, my career was really interesting. I don’t think I was someone who thought I would end up in sales for as long as I did.
I really developed that passion for sales along the way. and now I think it’s such a fun challenge to teach people, to like, appreciate all, all that there is to love about sales too. So that parts are really cool. But I started as an individual contributor. I became a sales manager afterwards, but, That was always really my, my end point.
Like I wanted to be able to manage people and work with people. so I became a sales manager and then a few years in, I actually had the opportunity to move back to Montreal, with Meltwater and start the Montreal office. So at the time we had no French speaking customers and a huge thing for them was, you know, how do we develop the French Canadian market?
So I made that my mission for, for a couple of years. and now I’m running Canada. It’s, it’s a super fun team of, you know, 70 rock stars better, both in sales and customer success.
Derek: [00:02:41] So, yeah. Wow. Okay.
Jessica: [00:02:44] That’s, that’s
Derek: [00:02:45] tremendous growth over those seven years that you’ve been there. Can you talk a bit about when you first became a leader, what are some mistakes that you made or some things that you wish you’d done differently?
Jessica: [00:02:58] So it was really interesting because. Sales came more naturally to me than management did. And it was such a heartbreak when we first started to manage. so interestingly enough, the first few people I managed, all ended up resigning. So I had three of the first people that I ever managed that ended up resigning and it was devastating.
And I think, you know, it’s very important when you’re a manager to always use that as a learning experience. Like I used to take these things. To heart and, and sit down and reflect on why that person left, because whether you had an impact directly or indirectly, you know, that, that person’s gone in and they were on your team.
but so for me, like I had just always been so fascinated with people and you know, how different people are and. Part of that is from growing in, you know, an ex-pat community where you already are surrounded by people that are so different and all of a sudden to step into a formal setting where I’m not connecting with people like I was outside of work.
And for some reason I’m not a good mentor, probably one of the biggest setbacks. And I think a mistake I made early on, was I, I, more than I enlisted or the, the listening to the people that I was managing.
Okay, can
Derek: [00:04:15] you, can you say more on that? Like what that mean? You’d get into one-on-ones and you’re just dictating what they should be doing, or how did that manifest itself?
Jessica: [00:04:24] Yeah. So I, I, I think it’s, it’s a little bit of that imposter syndrome that a lot of first-time managers experience, right? Where you are managing someone and you feel that you need to be able to tell them what to do and, and guide them.
And I think that that doesn’t leave room for open discussion on a team. And I almost feel that I had had a fear of failure, these very high standards for my teams. So when I was first managing people, Yeah, I think my standards were too high and I wasn’t patient enough and teaching people how to really, develop.
And it came down to this idea that, you know, I was probably managing them the way that I would have wanted to be managed, but every person is different. And I had lost track of that as, as a first time manager.
Derek: [00:05:10] So how did you, as you evolved as a leader, how did you. How did you fix that? You know, for lack of a better way about seeing it?
Jessica: [00:05:19] Yeah, so it, I had this really impactful chat with, my first manager and one of the most important things that you can do as a manager. And the day I made that realization was the day that I think my ability to lead change. But I think there’s nothing more powerful that you can do for someone on your team then.
Like almost blindly believe in the person. Right? So there is this unwavering belief that you can have in them. And once I change that and really like, Brought them in. If you were on my team, it is my responsibility to make you successful. And I will do everything in my power to make you successful. I think that can be a really powerful bond that you’re establishing right off the get-go.
So I started to focus less on the initial results that people on my team were having and focusing more on how do I build that trust and loyalty with them? Right. How do I make sure that we are actually a team that we have shared goals that I. You know, reliable that I’m delivering on what they need, that I am truly focusing on coaching them based on their natural strengths.
Derek: [00:06:34] And so what are some tips that you can give to, for a new leader to sort of jumpstart that like, maybe they’re asking themselves those questions, what are the answers look like?
Jessica: [00:06:48] Yeah. Yeah. And so it’s so interesting, right? Because the problem when you’re a sales person for a long time is that we’re so conditioned to look at numbers and there’s this instant gratification that comes with sales.
And they’re very tangible metrics that you can look at, look at. And then all of a sudden you’re a manager and. So much of it is, is the soft skills. And you know, a lot of it is, is not quantifiable. And so I would tell managers to just be, to be patient with themselves. I do this exercise now with first-time managers, where I often ask them to rank themselves on a few key things.
I asked them to rank themselves on a scale of one to 10. How much trust have you built with the person who’s on your team? How much loyalty has you built with them? Do you think your shared goals are aligned and. You know, I think those things can take years to truly build, like for you to give yourself a 10 could take years and that’s okay.
I think that’s the part like it’s okay. Not to be a great manager at first, but as long as you are willing to like continuously improve and you’re seeking your team’s feedback and you’re very humble about the mistakes that you’ve made and, and you own up to them, you know, I think that that’s part of the process.
and the loyalty piece. I, I push new managers on a lot because I think that loyalty takes so much time to build where you need to focus on. Yeah. Like the idea of loyalty, an as a, as a sales manager is like, you know, are you as heartbroken about. Your team missing their quotas, as you are about your own, would you be willing to go, you know, to put as much work for, for them to be successful as you are for your own targets?
Right? So it’s that idea of like true selflessness and like putting your team first, which doesn’t come naturally to an individual contributor when they’re first transitioning.
Derek: [00:08:42] Cool. That’s great. That’s really helpful. what was the, what was the hardest thing about. Transitioning from an individual contributor to manager for you.
Jessica: [00:08:56] So it was definitely the hardest for me and having developed a lot of first-time managers. I see this come up a lot, but I think one of the hardest things to do with, to, to figure out how to motivate a team. And how to hold that team accountable. Those are the two dynamics that you’ll struggle with as a first time manager.
Right. And they’re really deep concepts that you need to spend a lot of time on. you know, I think a big mistake we make is that we ended up having these very superficial conversations with people out of fear of. Going slightly deeper and maybe asking questions that could make them uncomfortable and it’s not uncomfortable.
It’s like, you know, are you truly getting to the bottom of like what motivates that person? And so the way I
Derek: [00:09:48] vulnerability is that that maybe a better word. Yeah, much
Jessica: [00:09:52] better word. Exactly. There is, you know, in order for someone to be vulnerable, you usually have to be vulnerable as well. And so we just don’t go there a lot of the times, right before it’s super hard, especially in a work setting.
and you know, so we end up using a lot of. Extrinsic motivators like the different carrots and sticks that are at our disposal. Right. I will run a sales competition or we’ll throw more money at people or, you know, the promise of the next promotion or a bonus or a trip or whatever else it might be.
Right. There’s all these extrinsic motivators that. We we use because they’re easier and more accessible. Right. And some of them are, are less tangible. It doesn’t have to be, you know, a lead or a sales competition. But I see so many people, you know, who are conditioning, their teams to seek either praise or you’re using like fear of repercussions and punishment as this extrinsic motivator.
And. You know, it ties back to the loyalty piece. But I think that if you’re truly trying to build a team that will last a decade, that will last a really long time, it comes down to like, okay, how do I intrinsically motivate those people? and, and the intrinsic motivation piece is a bit more focused on that.
Person’s moral compass, their values, right? What has shaped them into who they are today? you know, I’m thinking of, of our podcasts even right now. And I, I think that if you’re listening to the person intently, because they may not even know what motivates them, but usually if you listen, they they’re alluding to it along the way.
You can hear through what they’re choosing to focus on what some of those values and key motivators are. So I would ask for time managers to focus on that a little
Derek: [00:11:43] more. So
Jessica: [00:11:46] for somebody who hasn’t
Derek: [00:11:47] done that, could you give maybe an example or two about what they might hear or what they might yeah.
Like what, what does that sound like? So that somebody can go out there and maybe have a better chance of recognizing when they hear the intrinsic motivators.
Jessica: [00:12:08] So a really common one that, that. You know, a is a good example is for some people, an intrinsic motivator, is, is it a sense of mastery, right? You need to feel like you’re a mastering sales in this context.
Right. So you’ll hear that, you know, you’ll hear them saying like, I, yeah, like I want to hit quotas because I want to win X competition is extrinsic, but that sense of mastery, like I want to prove to myself that I can do it. I want to. Become an expert in this field. And, and sense of mastery is usually a very common intrinsic motivator for people.
And then the idea is to also listen to how that changes for someone in their career. So something that’s actually really unique about my current team is that I managed a lot of them when they were entry level and a lot of us have grown together. So I have a team of eight right now in six of the eight people I’m managing.
Has been my direct reports for like five, five years, six years. They’re probably sick of me by now. But, so what’s cool is we’ve all grown together. Right? And so I’ve seen so many of them as they’ve evolved, their intrinsic motivation has changed so much. Right. Whereas at first it was, I want to develop a sense of mastery or I’m motivated by growth now it’s, you know, They have a purpose.
Like I want to truly be a SaaS expert or I am motivated by a sense of autonomy now, like you’ve given me so much autonomy and I’ve earned it. And like, that’s what gets me up in the morning.
Derek: [00:13:48] As you’re talking about this, I’m thinking through some of the teams that I’ve had. And, I want to give some examples that I think fall under this and get your thoughts.
so I agree with you that, like, I’ve never been a fan of competition. They didn’t motivate me as a rep. I won some right, but like a humblebrag guy, but I was never like, Oh, I have to win this competition in thinking back on top reps that have been on my teams. Rarely have they worried about winning a particular competition when they thought about doing well?
We’ve talked about it. It’s been, they want to be the best in the org. They want to be the top rap, or they want to do a good job for somebody that they support or like they want
Jessica: [00:14:40] our team to be
Derek: [00:14:43] themed. Right. Like, ah, but like if, if I do this, then our team
Jessica: [00:14:48] ends
Derek: [00:14:49] up being the top team. Like these things are.
These are short term, bursts of energy. These are, I don’t know if foundational is the right word, but maybe building these are, they’re thinking longer term towards building some things and, achieving something bigger than like a one day contest. I don’t know. What, what do you think about that? Is that what you’re talking about?
Jessica: [00:15:14] For sure. And, and, you know, as we’re talking about some of these, like shorter bursts, like the extrinsic motivators, like those can be effective, right. So when you’re a leader, I’m not saying you shouldn’t use those, but you just need to know when to use them. And then to know that they won’t work on everybody, some people will probably enjoy them more.
Yeah. And others, right? Like the sales competition is a perfect example. And it’s also such a short term very quick. First of like, I’m motivating this person for a day a week. Right. But to your point, tapping into that intrinsic motivation, like when I’ve gotten really deep with people, I’ve managed, you know, different things come out.
Like I want to be able to, make my family proud or give back to my family for everything that they’ve done for me, or, you know, I. Am passionate about business. And so I love that I get to learn and do business with all these different companies or do business with XYZ industry. Like that is so much more powerful than any small carrots that you could dangle in front of that person.
Derek: [00:16:13] Yeah.
right. I feel like the contest that I run my fair share of contest, but it’s like, all right. The floor doesn’t have energy today. So let’s do this thing in order to inject some energy. Okay. Coming up to the holidays and like, people are starting to check out maybe, or I’m worried that they might, that’s where you put a contest, but the middle of February and like nothing’s going on, probably don’t really need a contest unless you’re seeing these broader trends.
I love when sit down with a rap and they tell me something like. You know, Hey, I’m the first person in my family to go to college. And so I need to prove that this job that I chose chosen sales, like I need to prove to my parents, I made the right decision.
Jessica: [00:17:02] That person
Derek: [00:17:03] is going to work hard all the time.
And they’re going to try really hard to figure it out. Yeah.
Jessica: [00:17:10] And, and, you know, and then taking that a step farther, right? When you also tap into their intrinsic motivation, I think you are then able to also help and guide their careers. Right. And so a lot of the time, I think the reason, the types of conversations are frustrating for first-time managers is because it’s a discovery process with the person.
So a lot of the time you might ask them and they’re like, I don’t know. Like if you were to ask someone directly what intrinsically motivates you. W what’s your purpose? Like those are such a large daunting questions, right? You need to be able to navigate the situation, actually just look for, for cues. It gets a process of discovering new things about the person along the way.
To your point, you find out the person is the first person in their family to be that’s amazing. Right? And then you can dig a little deeper and figure out, okay. You know what? People in their life have made an impact? Who are they trying to prove something to. Right. What keeps them up at night? It’s such a process of discovery.
And I think if you have that natural curiosity for people, then taking that a step farther as like truly guiding them in their careers. And, you know, we’re getting a little off track, but I think something that I’ve always been really focused on is can I coach and help this person beyond our time together at Meltwater?
Right. So I’ve always taken them as like, am I helping them develop. Into whatever they want to be. You know, I had someone was telling me that their dream job is, you know, they just want to be a mom. Like you’re super excited to like be a mom later in life. And I was like, you know what? I think these negotiation skills or learning and sales will be right.
Hi, the role, anything they want to do later.
Derek: [00:18:47] Like so true.
You know, one of the things that freaked me out as a first time manager, I think what you’re talking about rolls up to this is how do I know when I’m doing a good job? Right? Like my first month my team hit 160%, but I didn’t feel like that was because of me, you know? And, and I had a month where my team did 80% and I also don’t think that that was directly because of me, like.
Neither of those months, as a single snapshot would tell you I was doing a good job or not. And like we’re used to as rats, having a much tighter loop, like a tighter feedback loop, you do a thing and you move a deal forward. Right? You do the next thing. You know, you get a win, whatever it is as a manager.
And especially this process that you’re talking about, it’s much longer term. You might not uncover somebody who’s motivated motivation for six months. You might never uncover it for some of your reps and you just have to live
Jessica: [00:19:46] with that. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s that element of not quantifying it the same way that it’s very daunting and it breaks my heart when I see managers give up and, you know, because they don’t have that same instant gratification.
And again, it comes down to, you know, For example, if I’m thinking of myself and why I didn’t give up when I was experiencing setbacks or not, not doing a good job. Cause I truly like. You were doing the job and not knowing if you were, I was just doing a poor job as a first time manager. And you know, the reason I didn’t give up was because one of my core beliefs or what intrinsically motivates me is that I do think that you end up doing more as a team than you ever will alone.
Like, I’ve just always been a part of teams on a team. And I’ve been natural leader in a lot of life settings, and I just didn’t want to give up on it. And it was interesting because at the time my director was really pushing me to be an individual self contributor because I was delivering a lot. And there’s always that dynamic right, where it’s like, well, why would you be such an amazing seller if you can just, you know, continue to, to, to hone in on those skills.
And I’m glad that I didn’t give up because. Yeah. It’s, you know, humans are your most fun, unpredictable assets. So when you’re working with people, they’re like always going to keep you on, on your toes. Like, I think sales is easy in comparison to like learning, to manage a team. And so I think. It’s about reframing some of those goals because it’s not metrics, but it’s, you know, you need to, as a manager, think about, okay, what was I looking to teach this person on my team over the next quarter and then reflect on what you’ve done.
Well, cause it’s really easy to beat yourself up as a manager and then just look at your team’s results. But if you’re coaching them on soft skills, like, okay, this team is the team member becoming a more fierce negotiator, right? How is their closing how’s there’s business? And like, whatever you’re coaching them on at work.
Like, are you seeing improvements? Because I think it’s really easy to just focus on what you’re not doing enough of as a manager.
Derek: [00:21:45] Yeah. There’s always 10,000 more things that you feel like,
Jessica: [00:21:49] yeah, always that feeling never really goes away.
Derek: [00:21:55] What do you do about that feeling?
Jessica: [00:21:59] What helps. Yeah, so interesting.
I’m definitely one of those people that always, always feel like I run out of time. I’ve become much better at prioritizing. So, you know, the to-do list will never get shorter, but like, can you go to sleep having. Accomplish the most important things. I think that’s, what’s really important. And that’s actually a really common pitfall.
You know, I see you, man managers oftentimes over commit under deliver for their teams, right? Because you’re just still willing to help and you want to help them, but you also need to know how much you can take on and also what might hinder their development. Right? Some managers are so invested and involved that.
You’re actually doing the thinking for your people and they’re not developing as fast as they could. You can actually be that person hindrance.
Yeah.
Derek: [00:22:53] Right? Like it’s like the, if you’re doing things for people, you’re probably not
Jessica: [00:22:58] helping them ironically. Yeah. Yeah. And we see it all the time, especially in sales. Right. Cause we’re so used to doing quickly acting it’s in our nature. Right. But you need to be teaching and not doing. And I see it all the time.
First time managers are like, I’ll just write the email. It’s easier. Just send it to me. I’ll write the email and you’re doing them such a disservice in the long run. So small habits and it’s catching yourself as you do it. So
Derek: [00:23:26] how do you think about that prioritization then? So you have extremely long to do less.
How often do you reprioritize? Like how do you define what’s number one or two?
Jessica: [00:23:39] Yeah, I’m always numbering my list and I’m like moving things up and down on that list. and then. You know, I always look at it too. And I’m like, could someone else help me with this? Right. So should I be doing this specifically?
Because it’s really easy to take on more things. And then as you’re running a larger team, there are just things on your list that are no longer the best use of your time. And that’s a really hard thing to do, right? So you could love certain parts of, for example, the sales process. Like I would love to join.
More demos or sometimes be in more client facing meetings than I currently am, but it’s not always the best use of my time at that moment. Right. So asking yourself that question, like what is the best use of my time right now and what will move the needle is very important.
Derek: [00:24:24] how many priorities are you working on at any given time?
Let me tell you why I’m asking that question, because I think a lot of people relate to this. I was, I’ve always been a person who wants to do a tremendous amount of things. So I packed my calendar right from starting the day to the end of the day, always doing something. But then I would find that like one meeting goes over and I have to throw something out, you know, so I know that having them wanting to do too much.
Okay.
Jessica: [00:24:52] How do you think about that problem?
Totally. I think salespeople are overachievers. So we suffer from this so much more than others in general. but I, but I also think so something that I struggle with that’s similar to that, but a bit more is that. So once you move from, I would say a director position to more of a general manager or VP type position, you actually also need to truly carve out time to be strategic and think about the future, not just a quarter away, but you know, what will Canada like Meltwater Canada look like in 2021, 2022.
And I love doing that and I was already doing a lot of the strategic thinking, but actually putting it in my calendar so that I can be selfish with that time. Has been really important for me. So I’ve become like an avid time blocker where there are times where I will just turn off Slack. My team knows it’s usually around the same time in specific weeks where I just, I need to do some thinking.
I look at numbers, I think about things. I read things, right? Like I need to kind of get those creative juices flowing. And that part was really hard for me because sometimes as a new leader, you feel that inaction is. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard not to be like in the trenches or right. Like helping with deals, but you being in the weeds is not the best, the best thing you could be doing for your team.
Right. So I struggled with that a lot. finding time for more of the strategic, bigger picture thinking,
Derek: [00:26:19] right? Like thinking and analyzing and looking at dashboards that doesn’t feel like action. How often are you doing that sort of strategic thinking type type work
Jessica: [00:26:37] in terms of like analyzing the numbers and things like that?
I naturally, I always tell people, you need to be really aware about. What your weaknesses are because you will naturally procrastinate those in. So I’m really diligent about blocking time off for those things. And so for me, big thing is, you know, I’m not necessarily analytical. I’m a very, I’m very much a feeler, you know, someone who like wants to jump in and act right away.
And so right now, since I moved to the West coast, what I do is I just do not check my email or go on Slack before I’ve looked at the numbers. Before I have set a few priorities down. So I will actually like start to make a to-do list before I go on Slack and email. Otherwise you end up being reactive that entire day, right?
So you are just essentially reacting to all these external triggers and not accomplishing what you actually set out to do that day. So that’s been huge for me in terms of like truly every morning before I even turn anything on that first hour. My keynote already, technically working on the East coast, but I won’t be online with them.
and then I’ll check in, obviously respond to things, but it doesn’t throw my day off the same way in terms of the bigger picture. Strategy thinking in terms of, you know, doing some of the planning for 2021, for example, in terms of head counts and you know, maybe who I’ll promote who my up and comers are.
I try to do a bit of that every week, but it’s hard, right? Because you also you’ll come up with an idea. So just blocking off that time, that day, if you can, right. Even if it means like. Moving a call because you’re inspired that day and you need to be doing some of that, that reflecting. So that happens more ad hoc.
But I think the morning piece is so important and I really encourage sales managers to do that. You know, it doesn’t have to, you don’t have to be like, running a large team, but like, are you sitting down that morning and thinking about your sales team and you know, kind of diagnosing the problem. What, what could I do to help them, you know, is that person struggling with something?
And then you dictate what your priorities are that day. Cool.
Derek: [00:28:38] That’s really helpful. great. Any other advice or recommendations that you would give to either somebody trying to get promoted soon or somebody who just stepped into that new leadership role?
Jessica: [00:28:54] Yeah. There’s so there’s so much, I would have told myself six years ago.
but I think a big one is, you know, I, I think a natural tendency for new managers is to try to manage by building rapport, building friendships with their teams and. I’m not saying you shouldn’t be friends with your team or build rapport. Of course you should get to know them on an individual level, but you have to remember that, that it doesn’t actually mean that you’re managing, right.
And it’s just human nature to want to build. That’s what you’ve done your whole life in other settings where you’re finding common ground and just be friending people, but that’s not the most important part of management. Right. And I know that that’s usually the muscle that first time managers tend to flex more because they know how to do that.
And it comes naturally. So I would encourage them instead to. Yeah, try to come back to like, okay. In a working relationship, like, am I, can the person trust me? My leading by example. Right. Those to me are more important, than falling back on this idea that like, yeah, me and my team are really good friends, so we’re good.
Yeah. Cool.
Derek: [00:30:03] So focus on what coaching first or
Jessica: [00:30:07] would
Derek: [00:30:08] you say it should come.
Jessica: [00:30:10] Yeah, I would go back to the motivation piece. I will go back to the motivation piece, right? Like start to uncover why that person picked that career in the first place. Like, why are they in town? and if they don’t know, like discover it with them and then, you know, the sooner you can help people to be successful the better.
I think that’s also super important. So I always tell my first time managers to almost act in doctors, like, can you diagnose and treat the problem? Right. So if that person is, I don’t know, struggling with cold calls, struggling with prospecting, struggling with the actual demo, like let’s take a step back and unpack it and then figure out how we can help that person.
yeah.
Derek: [00:30:49] So, so somebody might hear you send it and say, well, yeah, but, you know, my new rep might not find me. You know, or take that coaching if we don’t have a good relationship already. So maybe that’s why I want to start there. What would you say to that?
Jessica: [00:31:06] Hmm. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I think you, so having a good relationship and being there like best friends in different.
Right. And I seen a lot of people just err, on the side of like, No, we’re good friends. So I’m a good sales manager. So I’m definitely not saying you shouldn’t build report. You absolutely should. I think it’s so important. I mean, you know, you want to work with people that you like, you’re going to spend most waking hours with them, but that alone won’t make you a good manager.
And so just encourage people to push themselves more. and also because you’re going to manage people from all walks of life rights to that point. Your team will end up being super diverse. Maybe some of these sales managers won’t go on to not just the sales leaders, but maybe don’t manage engineers and you don’t manage product one day.
Right? So you’re going to end up managing people that are so different that they’re intrinsically motivated by completely different things. So the sooner you can learn to uncover those things the better I think. And again, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be their friend, but I oftentimes think, I think it can take away from your ability, for example, to give some tougher feedback.
Your ability to push the person, right. If you’re only friends.
Derek: [00:32:19] Cool. I love that. Well,
Jessica: [00:32:21] thank you
Derek: [00:32:22] so much for sharing all that. And for coming on the show today, this is a really good sound bite. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom.
Jessica: [00:32:30] Yeah. It’s hard. Intrinsic motivation is, you know, not a fluffy topic, but it’s hard, right?
It’s one of those things where. I’m sure. Some people listen to it and be like, Oh, I wish you would just told me about conversion rate and how to improve their average contract value.
Yeah.
Derek: [00:32:48] I feel like when you get these, I guess I’ll call them software skills.
Jessica: [00:32:52] Right? You figure
Derek: [00:32:54] out the metrics related things, right? If you happen to somebody whose motivation and unleash that help them unleash that they will be. It will get better as a rap, right. They will learn, they will work harder and the metric stuff follows.
And we, we always want to push on the metrics. I feel like because, because of the instant gratification, boom, I moved our conversion up or our show rate off or whatever by these points. But, long-term the things that we talked about today. Like this intrinsic motivation is a lot more powerful. And it solves this
Jessica: [00:33:35] problem.
Yeah. And you know, but the last thing that came to mind is when that person is going to reflect on their time with you on their team or when they were learning from you. Very few people actually remember the numbers, right? It’s, it’s what you help them tap into what you helped them develop. So at the end of the day, those soft skills, it’s a lot of what you are leaving them with.
Right. That’s like your. Your biggest, biggest power as a manager is that ability to help them develop into business leaders. So, yeah. Well, thank you.
Derek: [00:34:08] Excellent. Thanks so much for coming on, Jess.
Jessica: [00:34:12] For sure.
